Comments on: Prepare for Spying Blow Back? http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html This is China Mon, 08 Sep 2008 09:31:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: nanheyangrouchuan http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-667 nanheyangrouchuan Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:35:35 +0000 http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-667 "Remember a few years ago when the US sold the Chinese government a plane that was bumblingly bugged? " There were two incidents, one was the Katrina Leung saga in which she seduced an FBI idiot into giving her details of US bugs on Zhang Ze Min's plane. The second one was the US telling (or the PSB discovering) that the PLA had planted bugs on a group of aircraft used to ferry senior cadres. This ties in with theories of a soft coup in which the PLA has decided it can do a better job of managing certain segments of internal security and international relations than the CCP. The CCP after all, would not exist if not for the PLA. As for retaliation, it would not be as bold or brash as what the Russians do, but more subtle such as foreign experts and business people in certain business sectors being harassed, having their apartments swept, computers and phone searched, etc. I'd really watch for inflammatory stories in local newspapers, some stories may mention shipping these guys off to Gitmo, or life imprisonment, etc which would play into the "look down on China", "contain China", "hold China back" stories that the CCP loves to cook up. BTW, China should be contained and held back...then de-constructed. “Remember a few years ago when the US sold the Chinese government a plane that was bumblingly bugged? ”

There were two incidents, one was the Katrina Leung saga in which she seduced an FBI idiot into giving her details of US bugs on Zhang Ze Min’s plane. The second one was the US telling (or the PSB discovering) that the PLA had planted bugs on a group of aircraft used to ferry senior cadres. This ties in with theories of a soft coup in which the PLA has decided it can do a better job of managing certain segments of internal security and international relations than the CCP. The CCP after all, would not exist if not for the PLA.

As for retaliation, it would not be as bold or brash as what the Russians do, but more subtle such as foreign experts and business people in certain business sectors being harassed, having their apartments swept, computers and phone searched, etc.

I’d really watch for inflammatory stories in local newspapers, some stories may mention shipping these guys off to Gitmo, or life imprisonment, etc which would play into the “look down on China”, “contain China”, “hold China back” stories that the CCP loves to cook up.

BTW, China should be contained and held back…then de-constructed.

]]> By: Shawn http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-666 Shawn Wed, 13 Feb 2008 04:34:48 +0000 http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-666 Hey Josh, I think when talking about spying (I am only going to discuss State-sanctioned, not industrial espionage), it helps to look at the motives. For the U.S. I think spying is more of a 'what are they up to', unless the target is considered an immediate threat. I think that the U.S. intelligence community is either weakened in the last 20 years, or they are just much more elusive. Maybe it is that technology is improved, and the human element is less visible. Still, I think the objectives between the U.S. and China are quite different. Regarding the Chinese network, I think there are four prime areas. First, the Chinese have a huge 'social network' in place around the world. Suprisingly, they have huge amounts of information on P.R.C. citizens, even those with foreign passports. This is for at least two purposes, one is to watch to see if there is anything contradictory to the P.R.C., and the other is in case they need to approach someone, they are armed with suprising information, which will give them the edge in 'negotiations' as for what they can do for the motherland. They also seem to forge into foreign-borne Chinese that they have a sense of duty for China, even if they never lived here. They seem to think that anyone who has Chinese heritage should help the P.R.C. so there is some recruiting of overseas, sometimes with the help of the information on family. Second and third are the 'normal' operations, intelligence gathering and monitoring, and counter-espionage. The advantage here lies with the Chinese, as the States being the land of immigrants, it is easier to infiltrate. Think of all the Chinese working for defence contractors, versus how many westerners are working for the defence industry in China. The biggest difference is with the fourth area (which is what this most recent ordeal is about). The P.R.C. has what could only be described as 'knowledge transfer'. The P.R.C. is still far behind in most areas of advanced technology. The gap is closing quickly, but advanced technology is highly coveted. Some technology comes from overseas investment in China through joint ventures, but for most of what the P.R.C. really wants, they need to use human assets. I have to wonder how much of the reported incidents were baited and controlled, and how much they are fed the wrong information. I have read that the Chinese AWAC plane that crashed in Anhui in 2006 was using some information from Israel, and some suspect 'bad intelligence' may have led to the accident. Nothing is ever really what it seems. Well, I guess it is time to destroy this hard drive. Hey Josh,
I think when talking about spying (I am only going to discuss State-sanctioned, not industrial espionage), it helps to look at the motives. For the U.S. I think spying is more of a ‘what are they up to’, unless the target is considered an immediate threat. I think that the U.S. intelligence community is either weakened in the last 20 years, or they are just much more elusive. Maybe it is that technology is improved, and the human element is less visible. Still, I think the objectives between the U.S. and China are quite different.

Regarding the Chinese network, I think there are four prime areas. First, the Chinese have a huge ’social network’ in place around the world. Suprisingly, they have huge amounts of information on P.R.C. citizens, even those with foreign passports. This is for at least two purposes, one is to watch to see if there is anything contradictory to the P.R.C., and the other is in case they need to approach someone, they are armed with suprising information, which will give them the edge in ‘negotiations’ as for what they can do for the motherland. They also seem to forge into foreign-borne Chinese that they have a sense of duty for China, even if they never lived here. They seem to think that anyone who has Chinese heritage should help the P.R.C. so there is some recruiting of overseas, sometimes with the help of the information on family.

Second and third are the ‘normal’ operations, intelligence gathering and monitoring, and counter-espionage. The advantage here lies with the Chinese, as the States being the land of immigrants, it is easier to infiltrate. Think of all the Chinese working for defence contractors, versus how many westerners are working for the defence industry in China.

The biggest difference is with the fourth area (which is what this most recent ordeal is about). The P.R.C. has what could only be described as ‘knowledge transfer’. The P.R.C. is still far behind in most areas of advanced technology. The gap is closing quickly, but advanced technology is highly coveted. Some technology comes from overseas investment in China through joint ventures, but for most of what the P.R.C. really wants, they need to use human assets.

I have to wonder how much of the reported incidents were baited and controlled, and how much they are fed the wrong information. I have read that the Chinese AWAC plane that crashed in Anhui in 2006 was using some information from Israel, and some suspect ‘bad intelligence’ may have led to the accident. Nothing is ever really what it seems. Well, I guess it is time to destroy this hard drive.

]]> By: rick shaw http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-663 rick shaw Wed, 13 Feb 2008 02:44:26 +0000 http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-663 Did they ever determine it was the U.S. who placed the bugs? If I remember right, it seems that the technology was not one used by the U.S. at that time. I thought it was an inside job with the Chinese military. Something about the short transmission range of the devices would make them useless for the States, unless they had some moles in the Chinese military that would make the recovery of the transmissions feasible. Did they ever determine it was the U.S. who placed the bugs? If I remember right, it seems that the technology was not one used by the U.S. at that time. I thought it was an inside job with the Chinese military. Something about the short transmission range of the devices would make them useless for the States, unless they had some moles in the Chinese military that would make the recovery of the transmissions feasible.

]]> By: Pappi http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-659 Pappi Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:38:51 +0000 http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-659 @Eric Which are the "tolerated spy networks"? Your words intrigue me @Eric

Which are the “tolerated spy networks”?

Your words intrigue me

]]> By: HaoJie http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-658 HaoJie Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:58:25 +0000 http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-658 Now they have an excuse to arrest those annoying American ExPats who blog constant complaints about CHINA! ;-) Now they have an excuse to arrest those annoying American ExPats who blog constant complaints about CHINA! ;-)

]]> By: eric http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-657 eric Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:37:33 +0000 http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-657 i really doubt that china would make a move on ordinary americans in China. they are so passed that stage. what would probably happen is that they would quietly deport some known but tolerated spy networks, ACTUAL spies. a simple message to the intelligence community in washington. i really doubt that china would make a move on ordinary americans in China. they are so passed that stage. what would probably happen is that they would quietly deport some known but tolerated spy networks, ACTUAL spies.
a simple message to the intelligence community in washington.

]]> By: China Law Blog http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-654 China Law Blog Tue, 12 Feb 2008 07:32:03 +0000 http://cupofcha.com/2008/02/12/prepare-for-spying-blow-back.html#comment-654 I am sure many will laugh at your warning, but I think you are absolutely right. Now I know one incident in another country does not make a trend, but I had a very good friend who was picked up in Russia, interrogated for days, and then deported for taking a picture of a fish processing plant. Why? Because the US had just recently seized a Russian national. Tit for tat is a regular part of the spying game. I am sure many will laugh at your warning, but I think you are absolutely right. Now I know one incident in another country does not make a trend, but I had a very good friend who was picked up in Russia, interrogated for days, and then deported for taking a picture of a fish processing plant. Why? Because the US had just recently seized a Russian national. Tit for tat is a regular part of the spying game.

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