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	<title>Comments on: Why Are China&#8217;s Laobaixing So Mad?</title>
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	<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html</link>
	<description>This is China</description>
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		<title>By: P</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html/comment-page-1#comment-3257</link>
		<dc:creator>P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 12:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html#comment-3257</guid>
		<description>wow. this whole article and most of the commentators are generalizing an incident to massive proportions as in actual fact many of you know little of China&#039;s supposed &#039;bully-mentality&#039; or mianzi. youve lived in China for 2 or 3 years and now you are all big shots about Chinese culture? get over yourselves. you are creating concepts and theories out of thin air to suit your own patronizing ideas about how China is so weird, and crazy, and barbaric that to witness a brawl there must be no other explanation than that the Chinese have warped minds and culture. i live in the uk and i have seen just as much of this kind of behaviour; &#039;yob&#039; mentality, chav bullying, drunkards fighting and swearing at each other, etc. etc. but you dont see me creating an article about how it is an intrinsic part of British culture. why? because i realise that there are assholes all over the world and these situations happen because of that, but you cant seem to understand this, instead, the tone of this article and many of the comments here are one of being ethnic superior. do you really believe that the average person in China is going to resort to this type of behaviour when faced with a problem? you speak of China being the &#039;land of the common man&#039; but in reality isnt this true in all parts of the world? i was told to &quot;go back to your country&quot; by an old, middle-class englishman but i wont generalise and brand all old, middle-class englishmen to be racist cunts. which seems to be your problem. you may not realise it but this article is an example of the type of &#039;unconscious&#039; China bashing that appears in many blogs. try and think OBJECTIVELY before you put it to paper.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow. this whole article and most of the commentators are generalizing an incident to massive proportions as in actual fact many of you know little of China&#8217;s supposed &#8216;bully-mentality&#8217; or mianzi. youve lived in China for 2 or 3 years and now you are all big shots about Chinese culture? get over yourselves. you are creating concepts and theories out of thin air to suit your own patronizing ideas about how China is so weird, and crazy, and barbaric that to witness a brawl there must be no other explanation than that the Chinese have warped minds and culture. i live in the uk and i have seen just as much of this kind of behaviour; &#8216;yob&#8217; mentality, chav bullying, drunkards fighting and swearing at each other, etc. etc. but you dont see me creating an article about how it is an intrinsic part of British culture. why? because i realise that there are assholes all over the world and these situations happen because of that, but you cant seem to understand this, instead, the tone of this article and many of the comments here are one of being ethnic superior. do you really believe that the average person in China is going to resort to this type of behaviour when faced with a problem? you speak of China being the &#8216;land of the common man&#8217; but in reality isnt this true in all parts of the world? i was told to &#8220;go back to your country&#8221; by an old, middle-class englishman but i wont generalise and brand all old, middle-class englishmen to be racist cunts. which seems to be your problem. you may not realise it but this article is an example of the type of &#8216;unconscious&#8217; China bashing that appears in many blogs. try and think OBJECTIVELY before you put it to paper.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html/comment-page-1#comment-506</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html#comment-506</guid>
		<description>@wdbox

It&#039;s a reasonable analysis, but parts of it don&#039;t really contradict what I said. It&#039;s a bully mentality. Bullies back down in a fair fight, so it&#039;s not surprising they didn&#039;t fight you. 

There is an eagerness to fight--when the odds are in a &#039;tough&#039; guy&#039;s favor.  I&#039;ve seen more guys being &#039;held back&#039; from fights than actually fighting. But that tends to be when a guy is afraid someone might actually fight back.

It&#039;s really good that you stepped in to fights, and I hope that your actions prevented further harm. Just be careful about what this means about your &#039;fibre.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@wdbox</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a reasonable analysis, but parts of it don&#8217;t really contradict what I said. It&#8217;s a bully mentality. Bullies back down in a fair fight, so it&#8217;s not surprising they didn&#8217;t fight you. </p>
<p>There is an eagerness to fight&#8211;when the odds are in a &#8216;tough&#8217; guy&#8217;s favor.  I&#8217;ve seen more guys being &#8216;held back&#8217; from fights than actually fighting. But that tends to be when a guy is afraid someone might actually fight back.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s really good that you stepped in to fights, and I hope that your actions prevented further harm. Just be careful about what this means about your &#8216;fibre.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: wdbox</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html/comment-page-1#comment-498</link>
		<dc:creator>wdbox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 01:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html#comment-498</guid>
		<description>Josh,
Excellent post, however, I must beg to differ with you on several points.  

Firstly, I would appreciate your defining the &quot;common man.&quot;  Also, I have problems with
&quot;bully mentality&quot; being &quot;pervasive&quot; in China.  My experiences indicate otherwise: Yes, whenever violence rears its ugly head, few if any, Chinese will voluntarily insert himself in harms way (is this not a common human trait?).  This is, I believe, due to a lifetime of conditioning by the government to maintain order among several hundred millions of mostly illiterate people.  The Chinese are taught to &quot;get along&quot; with one another and to not cause trouble.  Can you, or I, begin to imagine a society of such massive size violently venting its rage?

&quot;The common man in China is surprisingly mad, and I don’t know why. The stories that I told were only four, but I’ve seen similar, if less violent, situations frequently.&quot;  

What you have described here is &quot;herd mentality&quot; and it is a condition that afflicts every society.  Violence will attract a crowd in any society.  Violence, and the viewing of violence, are pleasurable!  Violence ranks right up there with sex and food as the most pleasurable aspects of life.  It&#039;s a sad fact.

&quot;Many Chinese think of America as a violent place, and it is in some respects. Perhaps if more people had guns in China people would think more before getting into a fist fight. However, that logic seems thin. I’ve seen lots of people get into arguments on the NYC subway, and I can’t remember a single incident when more than one punch was thrown, and I don’t think this restraint reflected a fear that the someone might be armed.&quot;   

Josh, America &quot;IS&quot; a violent place.  America may be the &quot;MOST&quot; violent society on the planet.  Guns are not the answer to solving SOCIAL PROBLEMS.  Addressing your assertion that few fights escalate beyond one punch - you are correct.  The reason is: this &quot;ain&#039;t&quot; Hollywood!  The guy that throws the first punch is more likely than not the winner.  It&#039;s that simple.

In my personal experiences here in Southwest China, I have taken a more hands on approach, if you will.  On more than one occasion where there was violence toward women I have intervened and walked away without a punch being thrown.  However, there may have been a down side to my action;  in my haste to help these women, I may have unintentionally increased the severity of their beating after I left the scene.  Intervention is not an option that I  would not recommend to everyone but it is part of my fibre.  I could not stand by and watch the physical abuse. Perhaps I have been lucky.  I may not be  lucky the next time.

At the time of occurrence, you analyzed your position and determined that the better course would be not to introduce yourself into the fray.  A decision that cannot now be altered regardless the amount of reflection.  You did what you thought was right at the time.  Let it go.

&quot;Is it something in the culture, or does the eagerness to fight reflect an anger in society–a deep bitterness looking for a channel to escape? I’m tempted to draw a conclusion about resentment about openness, or freedom, but just because the explanation somehow makes sense to me, doesn’t mean it’s grounded in reality. Maybe I’m drawing conclusions from nothing.&quot;

I have found nothing in this society that indicates an &quot;eagerness to fight&quot;, in fact, contrarily.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh,<br />
Excellent post, however, I must beg to differ with you on several points.  </p>
<p>Firstly, I would appreciate your defining the &#8220;common man.&#8221;  Also, I have problems with<br />
&#8220;bully mentality&#8221; being &#8220;pervasive&#8221; in China.  My experiences indicate otherwise: Yes, whenever violence rears its ugly head, few if any, Chinese will voluntarily insert himself in harms way (is this not a common human trait?).  This is, I believe, due to a lifetime of conditioning by the government to maintain order among several hundred millions of mostly illiterate people.  The Chinese are taught to &#8220;get along&#8221; with one another and to not cause trouble.  Can you, or I, begin to imagine a society of such massive size violently venting its rage?</p>
<p>&#8220;The common man in China is surprisingly mad, and I don’t know why. The stories that I told were only four, but I’ve seen similar, if less violent, situations frequently.&#8221;  </p>
<p>What you have described here is &#8220;herd mentality&#8221; and it is a condition that afflicts every society.  Violence will attract a crowd in any society.  Violence, and the viewing of violence, are pleasurable!  Violence ranks right up there with sex and food as the most pleasurable aspects of life.  It&#8217;s a sad fact.</p>
<p>&#8220;Many Chinese think of America as a violent place, and it is in some respects. Perhaps if more people had guns in China people would think more before getting into a fist fight. However, that logic seems thin. I’ve seen lots of people get into arguments on the NYC subway, and I can’t remember a single incident when more than one punch was thrown, and I don’t think this restraint reflected a fear that the someone might be armed.&#8221;   </p>
<p>Josh, America &#8220;IS&#8221; a violent place.  America may be the &#8220;MOST&#8221; violent society on the planet.  Guns are not the answer to solving SOCIAL PROBLEMS.  Addressing your assertion that few fights escalate beyond one punch &#8211; you are correct.  The reason is: this &#8220;ain&#8217;t&#8221; Hollywood!  The guy that throws the first punch is more likely than not the winner.  It&#8217;s that simple.</p>
<p>In my personal experiences here in Southwest China, I have taken a more hands on approach, if you will.  On more than one occasion where there was violence toward women I have intervened and walked away without a punch being thrown.  However, there may have been a down side to my action;  in my haste to help these women, I may have unintentionally increased the severity of their beating after I left the scene.  Intervention is not an option that I  would not recommend to everyone but it is part of my fibre.  I could not stand by and watch the physical abuse. Perhaps I have been lucky.  I may not be  lucky the next time.</p>
<p>At the time of occurrence, you analyzed your position and determined that the better course would be not to introduce yourself into the fray.  A decision that cannot now be altered regardless the amount of reflection.  You did what you thought was right at the time.  Let it go.</p>
<p>&#8220;Is it something in the culture, or does the eagerness to fight reflect an anger in society–a deep bitterness looking for a channel to escape? I’m tempted to draw a conclusion about resentment about openness, or freedom, but just because the explanation somehow makes sense to me, doesn’t mean it’s grounded in reality. Maybe I’m drawing conclusions from nothing.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have found nothing in this society that indicates an &#8220;eagerness to fight&#8221;, in fact, contrarily.</p>
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		<title>By: nanheyangrouchuan</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html/comment-page-1#comment-493</link>
		<dc:creator>nanheyangrouchuan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 08:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html#comment-493</guid>
		<description>Maybe some of the laobaixiang&#039;s anger in Shanghai comes from being beat up by Shanghai women.  I&#039;ve seen more than a few middle aged women kick a man&#039;s ass in front of a crowd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe some of the laobaixiang&#8217;s anger in Shanghai comes from being beat up by Shanghai women.  I&#8217;ve seen more than a few middle aged women kick a man&#8217;s ass in front of a crowd.</p>
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		<title>By: What&#8217;s Behind the Anger of the Common Chinese Man? &#171; One-Eyed Panda&#8217;s Journal</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html/comment-page-1#comment-483</link>
		<dc:creator>What&#8217;s Behind the Anger of the Common Chinese Man? &#171; One-Eyed Panda&#8217;s Journal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html#comment-483</guid>
		<description>[...] the Anger of the Common Chinese&#160;Man?  Jump to Comments Josh at Cup of Cha has a great piece on the anger of the common Chinese man especially the fist fights and beatings that you can sometimes see in the streets.  This is usually [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Anger of the Common Chinese&nbsp;Man?  Jump to Comments Josh at Cup of Cha has a great piece on the anger of the common Chinese man especially the fist fights and beatings that you can sometimes see in the streets.  This is usually [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Devonshire-Ellis</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html/comment-page-1#comment-479</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Devonshire-Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html#comment-479</guid>
		<description>I recall queing up at Immigration at Hong Kong after arriving from Shekou in Shenzhen. Behind me was a heavily pregnant Chinese woman and ahead a smartly dressed Chinese businessman. Then the queue next lane opened, and everyone made a dash. I ushered the pregant woman to the head of the queue so she got through first. The Chinese businessman was very pissed off and shouted at me &quot;Why did you do that ? What makes you think she is better or more important than me?&quot; He then swore at me in Cantonese. My only reply was &quot;She&#039;s a lady. You regrettably are not a Gentleman.  And ladies, especially ones with child, always go first. Where are your manners?&quot; 

But I don&#039;t think he understood any of that, and probably remained angry he had &quot;lost face&quot; by not being permitted to be first in the queue ahead of a pregnant woman the rest of the day.  On such trivialities Chinese men lose face and it upsets them. Which is why they also never give way when driving cars, even when it makes patently good road traffic sense to do so. They&#039;d rather sit there for 30 minutes having created a traffic backlog than give way to someone else and lose face.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recall queing up at Immigration at Hong Kong after arriving from Shekou in Shenzhen. Behind me was a heavily pregnant Chinese woman and ahead a smartly dressed Chinese businessman. Then the queue next lane opened, and everyone made a dash. I ushered the pregant woman to the head of the queue so she got through first. The Chinese businessman was very pissed off and shouted at me &#8220;Why did you do that ? What makes you think she is better or more important than me?&#8221; He then swore at me in Cantonese. My only reply was &#8220;She&#8217;s a lady. You regrettably are not a Gentleman.  And ladies, especially ones with child, always go first. Where are your manners?&#8221; </p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t think he understood any of that, and probably remained angry he had &#8220;lost face&#8221; by not being permitted to be first in the queue ahead of a pregnant woman the rest of the day.  On such trivialities Chinese men lose face and it upsets them. Which is why they also never give way when driving cars, even when it makes patently good road traffic sense to do so. They&#8217;d rather sit there for 30 minutes having created a traffic backlog than give way to someone else and lose face.</p>
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		<title>By: nanheyangrouchuan</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html/comment-page-1#comment-478</link>
		<dc:creator>nanheyangrouchuan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html#comment-478</guid>
		<description>@FOARP

&quot;Is China a violent country? Not individually, in fact the average Chinese person is far less likely to do violence against a stranger than his or her British counterpart.&quot;

There have been studies regarding types of violence and ethnic groups.  For example, whites are more prone to one on one violence, sometimes at unspeakable levels and the fact that most of the world&#039;s serial killers, and the most prolific ones, tend to be white.  Blacks tend more to group on group violence, forgot what was said about Latinos.  What&#039;s the word on violence in other N. Asian countries?  S. Asian?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@FOARP</p>
<p>&#8220;Is China a violent country? Not individually, in fact the average Chinese person is far less likely to do violence against a stranger than his or her British counterpart.&#8221;</p>
<p>There have been studies regarding types of violence and ethnic groups.  For example, whites are more prone to one on one violence, sometimes at unspeakable levels and the fact that most of the world&#8217;s serial killers, and the most prolific ones, tend to be white.  Blacks tend more to group on group violence, forgot what was said about Latinos.  What&#8217;s the word on violence in other N. Asian countries?  S. Asian?</p>
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		<title>By: Rebekah</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html/comment-page-1#comment-469</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebekah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html#comment-469</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, good post! Very thought provoking. As a foreign woman, I am not accustomed to being man-handled. In my first month in Shanghai, I was accosted on the street in broad daylight by two men (I couldn&#039;t speak any Chinese then so I didnt understand what the problem was). They physically restrained me and wouldn&#039;t let me get away. Finally the police were called and it turns out they were accusing me of having stolen one of their cell phones. I got carted off the to police station in a police car and had to fill out a crap load of paper work. Finally my brother arrived at the station (very pissed off about what they had done to me). He speaks Chinese and roared a bit. Finally I was released. I still don&#039;t know why the guys grabbed me. I had never seen them before and my cell phone was a crap piece of shit, so I can only assume it was some sort of scam and they were intending to drag me into an alley, except that too many people were around and it was broad daylight!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, good post! Very thought provoking. As a foreign woman, I am not accustomed to being man-handled. In my first month in Shanghai, I was accosted on the street in broad daylight by two men (I couldn&#8217;t speak any Chinese then so I didnt understand what the problem was). They physically restrained me and wouldn&#8217;t let me get away. Finally the police were called and it turns out they were accusing me of having stolen one of their cell phones. I got carted off the to police station in a police car and had to fill out a crap load of paper work. Finally my brother arrived at the station (very pissed off about what they had done to me). He speaks Chinese and roared a bit. Finally I was released. I still don&#8217;t know why the guys grabbed me. I had never seen them before and my cell phone was a crap piece of shit, so I can only assume it was some sort of scam and they were intending to drag me into an alley, except that too many people were around and it was broad daylight!</p>
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		<title>By: FOARP</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html/comment-page-1#comment-464</link>
		<dc:creator>FOARP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html#comment-464</guid>
		<description>Coming from the UK, which has its own history of mob violence, I was always amazed by the simple way in which I never saw people fight one-on-one in the way you might in the UK. The way in which people seem to take pride in the mere taking part in collective punishment seemed to be much more important than any display of strength. It is hard not to see the shadow of the cultural revolution in the often laughing crowds that gather to see someone take their licks. 

Still and all, being on the receiving end of it (through no fault of my own) is quite a different experience. All the small-scale xenophobia you seem to spend all your time dealing with in China suddenly wells up, and you discover that there are people in China who genuinely hate foreigners, as well as others who are willing to go along with the crowd.

Is China a violent country? Not individually, in fact the average Chinese person is far less likely to do violence against a stranger than his or her British counterpart. However, once a crowd gathers a kind of mob mentality takes over, but this happens only very rarely, and one doesn&#039;t have to be Chinese to see a certain kind of justice in a streetfull of people whaling on someone caught pick-pocketing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coming from the UK, which has its own history of mob violence, I was always amazed by the simple way in which I never saw people fight one-on-one in the way you might in the UK. The way in which people seem to take pride in the mere taking part in collective punishment seemed to be much more important than any display of strength. It is hard not to see the shadow of the cultural revolution in the often laughing crowds that gather to see someone take their licks. </p>
<p>Still and all, being on the receiving end of it (through no fault of my own) is quite a different experience. All the small-scale xenophobia you seem to spend all your time dealing with in China suddenly wells up, and you discover that there are people in China who genuinely hate foreigners, as well as others who are willing to go along with the crowd.</p>
<p>Is China a violent country? Not individually, in fact the average Chinese person is far less likely to do violence against a stranger than his or her British counterpart. However, once a crowd gathers a kind of mob mentality takes over, but this happens only very rarely, and one doesn&#8217;t have to be Chinese to see a certain kind of justice in a streetfull of people whaling on someone caught pick-pocketing.</p>
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		<title>By: China Hearsay: China law, business, and economics commentary</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html/comment-page-1#comment-463</link>
		<dc:creator>China Hearsay: China law, business, and economics commentary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2008/01/23/why-are-chinas-laobaixing-so-mad.html#comment-463</guid>
		<description>[...] Josh, with his finger on the pulse of the community, states: &quot;The common man in China is surprisingly mad, and I don&#8217;t know why.&quot; See the entire post here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Josh, with his finger on the pulse of the community, states: &quot;The common man in China is surprisingly mad, and I don&rsquo;t know why.&quot; See the entire post here. [...]</p>
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