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	<title>Comments on: What Chinese People are Saying about our Blogs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html</link>
	<description>This is China</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 23:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Debra</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-427</link>
		<dc:creator>Debra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-427</guid>
		<description>Some here wrote:
however, if you think your media is free, open and telling you the truth, you may never suspect you’re being lied to or manipulated.

Western media, or certainly US media, isn’t tightly controlled by the government, but by something far worse - corporations - who, incidentally, tightly control the government.

This has never been more true in the US, especially under this administration.  I cannot tell you how many from Academia alone have lost their jobs over a comment or observation.  Having lived abroad in mid-south rural China, outer Beijing, Jiangxi and in other countries and being an anthropologist, it's interesting to learn from persons from more than 60 different countries. For the US citizens, this means reading the International editions of Newsweek and the like. However, many are simply unwilling to do so. In a country that used to be me the most ethnically diverse, it is still the most culturally ignorant.

In many ways, the media and associative actions based on this worldview are more imposing globally. 

Think about it...... why is a country whose healthcare that ranks 46th in the world and spends the second highest amount for Western medicine telling the rest of the world how it should conduct its affairs? Why is a country that claims Democracy run not by the people for the people? It is run  by the upper class and corporatocracy! Why has the standard government line of US defense always been, "We are more of a Republic than a Democracy?"

If the US wants to be a leader, then it cannot turn a blind eye to its developing nation state during the mid 1800s into the mid twentieth century. Fortunately or unfortunately, it did not have news media to highlight the pollution, the bloody rise of unions, the incredible cost of lives and human rights abuses.  Those are facts. 
Yet, it dismisses those and imposes many standards contained within its worldview upon others around the world without considering the inalienable rights of culture and knowledge and inherent value in those. It cannot continue to look at the world through the western dichotomy, through the either/ or or "Us" and "Other" lens, if it is to survive.

It must learn to look at all people as people, culture as culture and worldviews as lenses with which to view the world and even refine and adjust and/or test theories. For too long, the West has not fully understood China, the Middle East, Africa, South America and the like. The Orient, including China, has been characterized as backward and exotic. In fact, there is no way to use English in a manner that is not overtly derrogatory when we write about China or Asian countries.

The fact is that China understands the West and can grasp both worlds while still being China. The Chinese grasp different medicines and combine them for more benefit. The Chinese have made sacrifices for the sake of their country and for the world by implementing the one child policy. When we look at this alone, the US's unwillingness to even cut its emissions or oil dependence seems adolescent. The US needs to grow up and become a better world citizen through tolerance  and acceptance of diversity. It must learn to turn that reflexive lens upon itself and its motives and then consider alternatives and solutions. As it stands, China, Japan and most Asian countries have the upper hand simply because they exist within the world of "not only but also." They can and do accommodate more easily.  The rest of the world has lessons to learn and should embrace the opportunities to do so, even welcome them. After all, we are one global family with one world to share! No one owns it. That is an illusion. 

It's time to stop picking on other peoples and start to look at the world simply as it is. If you stand back, step outside your acculturation and see it as it is, you might be very surprised at what you see and more importantly by what you find. Namaste</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some here wrote:<br />
however, if you think your media is free, open and telling you the truth, you may never suspect you’re being lied to or manipulated.</p>
<p>Western media, or certainly US media, isn’t tightly controlled by the government, but by something far worse - corporations - who, incidentally, tightly control the government.</p>
<p>This has never been more true in the US, especially under this administration.  I cannot tell you how many from Academia alone have lost their jobs over a comment or observation.  Having lived abroad in mid-south rural China, outer Beijing, Jiangxi and in other countries and being an anthropologist, it&#8217;s interesting to learn from persons from more than 60 different countries. For the US citizens, this means reading the International editions of Newsweek and the like. However, many are simply unwilling to do so. In a country that used to be me the most ethnically diverse, it is still the most culturally ignorant.</p>
<p>In many ways, the media and associative actions based on this worldview are more imposing globally. </p>
<p>Think about it&#8230;&#8230; why is a country whose healthcare that ranks 46th in the world and spends the second highest amount for Western medicine telling the rest of the world how it should conduct its affairs? Why is a country that claims Democracy run not by the people for the people? It is run  by the upper class and corporatocracy! Why has the standard government line of US defense always been, &#8220;We are more of a Republic than a Democracy?&#8221;</p>
<p>If the US wants to be a leader, then it cannot turn a blind eye to its developing nation state during the mid 1800s into the mid twentieth century. Fortunately or unfortunately, it did not have news media to highlight the pollution, the bloody rise of unions, the incredible cost of lives and human rights abuses.  Those are facts.<br />
Yet, it dismisses those and imposes many standards contained within its worldview upon others around the world without considering the inalienable rights of culture and knowledge and inherent value in those. It cannot continue to look at the world through the western dichotomy, through the either/ or or &#8220;Us&#8221; and &#8220;Other&#8221; lens, if it is to survive.</p>
<p>It must learn to look at all people as people, culture as culture and worldviews as lenses with which to view the world and even refine and adjust and/or test theories. For too long, the West has not fully understood China, the Middle East, Africa, South America and the like. The Orient, including China, has been characterized as backward and exotic. In fact, there is no way to use English in a manner that is not overtly derrogatory when we write about China or Asian countries.</p>
<p>The fact is that China understands the West and can grasp both worlds while still being China. The Chinese grasp different medicines and combine them for more benefit. The Chinese have made sacrifices for the sake of their country and for the world by implementing the one child policy. When we look at this alone, the US&#8217;s unwillingness to even cut its emissions or oil dependence seems adolescent. The US needs to grow up and become a better world citizen through tolerance  and acceptance of diversity. It must learn to turn that reflexive lens upon itself and its motives and then consider alternatives and solutions. As it stands, China, Japan and most Asian countries have the upper hand simply because they exist within the world of &#8220;not only but also.&#8221; They can and do accommodate more easily.  The rest of the world has lessons to learn and should embrace the opportunities to do so, even welcome them. After all, we are one global family with one world to share! No one owns it. That is an illusion. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s time to stop picking on other peoples and start to look at the world simply as it is. If you stand back, step outside your acculturation and see it as it is, you might be very surprised at what you see and more importantly by what you find. Namaste</p>
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		<title>By: Angel</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-326</link>
		<dc:creator>Angel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 14:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-326</guid>
		<description>Mark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark</p>
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		<title>By: tianya</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-246</link>
		<dc:creator>tianya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 06:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-246</guid>
		<description>guchuan responds: 
我的理解，记号就是表示他或她已经看过这篇文章了。
=========
不怎么准确，记号是表示对这篇文章有兴趣，但现在来不及看，或者作者还没有写完。读者在帖子里留言，在天涯帐号里就会有回复记录，以后很快就可以搜索到了。就好像中国人到那里都喜欢写“XXX到次一游”一样。，做个记号先。</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>guchuan responds:<br />
我的理解，记号就是表示他或她已经看过这篇文章了。<br />
=========<br />
不怎么准确，记号是表示对这篇文章有兴趣，但现在来不及看，或者作者还没有写完。读者在帖子里留言，在天涯帐号里就会有回复记录，以后很快就可以搜索到了。就好像中国人到那里都喜欢写“XXX到次一游”一样。，做个记号先。</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-245</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 06:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-245</guid>
		<description>I'm not telling you that you can't comment here. Josh decide wether you are worthy. Just putting the facts on the table for him to see. What I think/know is another matter.

The past has proved that discussing with you is worthwhile, so won't even try. Watch me now: I m one who can actually stop posting when I say so. *closes door*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not telling you that you can&#8217;t comment here. Josh decide wether you are worthy. Just putting the facts on the table for him to see. What I think/know is another matter.</p>
<p>The past has proved that discussing with you is worthwhile, so won&#8217;t even try. Watch me now: I m one who can actually stop posting when I say so. *closes door*</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Anthony Jones</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-243</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Anthony Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-243</guid>
		<description>Peter - the link you have provided is to a post I commented on roughly three years ago. I regularly post on the China Law Blog, and am on good terms with Dan, who administers that site. He certainly doesn't consider me to be a troll. If my comments here offend you, or if they somehow make me a "troll" in your book, then I will quite happily stop posting comments here - so long as you view is also shared by this site's owner. All Josh need do is to make such a request, and I'll stop posting here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter - the link you have provided is to a post I commented on roughly three years ago. I regularly post on the China Law Blog, and am on good terms with Dan, who administers that site. He certainly doesn&#8217;t consider me to be a troll. If my comments here offend you, or if they somehow make me a &#8220;troll&#8221; in your book, then I will quite happily stop posting comments here - so long as you view is also shared by this site&#8217;s owner. All Josh need do is to make such a request, and I&#8217;ll stop posting here.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-238</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-238</guid>
		<description>Congrats on your newest troll Josh. ;-)

Not sure you know about Mark A. Jones, but maybe you should read up on this link:  

http://pekingduck.org/archives/002656.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Congrats on your newest troll Josh. <img src='http://cupofcha.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Not sure you know about Mark A. Jones, but maybe you should read up on this link:  </p>
<p><a href="http://pekingduck.org/archives/002656.php" rel="nofollow">http://pekingduck.org/archives/002656.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: tianya</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-237</link>
		<dc:creator>tianya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-237</guid>
		<description>你们愿意上天涯和网友讨论吗？</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>你们愿意上天涯和网友讨论吗？</p>
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		<title>By: nanheyangrouchuan</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-235</link>
		<dc:creator>nanheyangrouchuan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-235</guid>
		<description>@MAJ:

"and to date I have relied mostly on research that is internationally recognised and accepted as valid - these studies tend to be conducted in China, but by independent foreign researchers,"

You do understand that there is no "freedom of information act" in China and that the foreigners are only given information that has been pre-approved by whomever (which is usually not even the same person or group of people).  And I'm sure you understand that all of that information is considered "state property" and may be declared "state secrets" at any time.

Compare this to widely available economic and social indicators in other large economies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@MAJ:</p>
<p>&#8220;and to date I have relied mostly on research that is internationally recognised and accepted as valid - these studies tend to be conducted in China, but by independent foreign researchers,&#8221;</p>
<p>You do understand that there is no &#8220;freedom of information act&#8221; in China and that the foreigners are only given information that has been pre-approved by whomever (which is usually not even the same person or group of people).  And I&#8217;m sure you understand that all of that information is considered &#8220;state property&#8221; and may be declared &#8220;state secrets&#8221; at any time.</p>
<p>Compare this to widely available economic and social indicators in other large economies.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Anthony Jones</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Anthony Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-234</guid>
		<description>Nanheyangrouchuan - I appreciate and acknowledge your point that many of the studies carried out by Chinese academics fail to meet international standards in the way that they are often conducted, and that they often need to be treated with caution, but I have never cited any of the studies you mention here, and to date I have relied mostly on research that is internationally recognised and accepted as valid - these studies tend to be conducted in China, but by independent foreign researchers, and which are published in journals outside of China. Of course not all mainland Chinese research studies are worthless too, I might add.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nanheyangrouchuan - I appreciate and acknowledge your point that many of the studies carried out by Chinese academics fail to meet international standards in the way that they are often conducted, and that they often need to be treated with caution, but I have never cited any of the studies you mention here, and to date I have relied mostly on research that is internationally recognised and accepted as valid - these studies tend to be conducted in China, but by independent foreign researchers, and which are published in journals outside of China. Of course not all mainland Chinese research studies are worthless too, I might add.</p>
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		<title>By: nanheyangrouchuan</title>
		<link>http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-229</link>
		<dc:creator>nanheyangrouchuan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 02:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cupofcha.com/2007/12/08/what-chinese-people-are-saying-about-our-blogs.html#comment-229</guid>
		<description>So even by your definition, the statements issued in the press regarding statistics on the state of the Chinese economy represent quantitative data.  Either the Chinese economy is larger or smaller than estimated.  


http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200308/14/eng20030814_122308.shtml
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&#38;_udi=B6W46-4JWMT6K-1&#38;_user=10&#38;_rdoc=1&#38;_fmt=&#38;_orig=search&#38;_sort=d&#38;view=c&#38;_acct=C000050221&#38;_version=1&#38;_urlVersion=0&#38;_userid=10&#38;md5=231d126b4f664ffb2cdaff80a6dbdb7f
http://cesifo.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/52/2/396

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FD01Ad02.html
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&#38;_udi=B6W46-41S4XW8-2&#38;_user=10&#38;_rdoc=1&#38;_fmt=&#38;_orig=search&#38;_sort=d&#38;view=c&#38;_acct=C000050221&#38;_version=1&#38;_urlVersion=0&#38;_userid=10&#38;md5=04c43e4dc58a509adad666be6b4e6426
http://books.google.com/books?id=fDwFMZqu_NMC&#38;pg=PA421&#38;lpg=PA421&#38;dq=underestimation+of+china's+economy&#38;source=web&#38;ots=vkMi1sPOP0&#38;sig=m7aWn1dtlTQY2E6des6zbWGJnls

The overall conclusion is that due to a lack of transparency from Beijing to the outside world and from the provincial and local governments to Beijing, reliable and meaningful economic indicators of the types that developed economies are used to seeing rarely exist.

And as much of this may be due to face saving or face building as attempts to increase foreign investment and off-shoring.  I don't think that Beijing gets the picture that clarity and honesty would help attract more investment and off-shoring, even if China looked poorer because of clarity.  But old habits don't die for the CCP, especially when it sees itself in nearly the same light as Kim Jong Il or Robert Mugabe

And lets not get started on estimations of environmental damage in China.  At this point some speculate it would take at nearly half of China's forex reserves to really clean up the place and that is assuming that the point of no return has not been reached.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So even by your definition, the statements issued in the press regarding statistics on the state of the Chinese economy represent quantitative data.  Either the Chinese economy is larger or smaller than estimated.  </p>
<p><a href="http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200308/14/eng20030814_122308.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200308/14/eng20030814_122308.shtml</a><br />
<a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6W46-4JWMT6K-1&amp;_user=10&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=231d126b4f664ffb2cdaff80a6dbdb7f" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6W46-4JWMT6K-1&amp;_user=10&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=231d126b4f664ffb2cdaff80a6dbdb7f</a><br />
<a href="http://cesifo.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/52/2/396" rel="nofollow">http://cesifo.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/52/2/396</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FD01Ad02.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FD01Ad02.html</a><br />
<a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6W46-41S4XW8-2&amp;_user=10&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=04c43e4dc58a509adad666be6b4e6426" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&amp;_udi=B6W46-41S4XW8-2&amp;_user=10&amp;_rdoc=1&amp;_fmt=&amp;_orig=search&amp;_sort=d&amp;view=c&amp;_acct=C000050221&amp;_version=1&amp;_urlVersion=0&amp;_userid=10&amp;md5=04c43e4dc58a509adad666be6b4e6426</a><br />
<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=fDwFMZqu_NMC&amp;pg=PA421&amp;lpg=PA421&amp;dq=underestimation+of+china" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.com/books?id=fDwFMZqu_NMC&amp;pg=PA421&amp;lpg=PA421&amp;dq=underestimation+of+china</a>&#8217;s+economy&amp;source=web&amp;ots=vkMi1sPOP0&amp;sig=m7aWn1dtlTQY2E6des6zbWGJnls</p>
<p>The overall conclusion is that due to a lack of transparency from Beijing to the outside world and from the provincial and local governments to Beijing, reliable and meaningful economic indicators of the types that developed economies are used to seeing rarely exist.</p>
<p>And as much of this may be due to face saving or face building as attempts to increase foreign investment and off-shoring.  I don&#8217;t think that Beijing gets the picture that clarity and honesty would help attract more investment and off-shoring, even if China looked poorer because of clarity.  But old habits don&#8217;t die for the CCP, especially when it sees itself in nearly the same light as Kim Jong Il or Robert Mugabe</p>
<p>And lets not get started on estimations of environmental damage in China.  At this point some speculate it would take at nearly half of China&#8217;s forex reserves to really clean up the place and that is assuming that the point of no return has not been reached.</p>
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